tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1389986049507804094.post2670613333685675764..comments2024-03-25T21:52:03.310-05:00Comments on Hill Cantons: The Curious Cosmology of “Holmesian” AlignmentChris Kutalikhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01414743509426875792noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1389986049507804094.post-31090219537560734672013-04-18T00:10:21.301-05:002013-04-18T00:10:21.301-05:00Fun post. I like the line of thinking that aligns ...Fun post. I like the line of thinking that aligns paganism with chaos and Christianity with law; it accords reasonably well with, say, the Olympian gods. About those human sacrificing druids, besides the historical basis, I believe Rob Kuntz introduced druids as villains in one of the early campaigns he ran for EGG. Those early druids call to mind Conan's enemies in "Beyond the Black River."Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08868302412533031659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1389986049507804094.post-58640054860449870362013-04-15T06:20:36.634-05:002013-04-15T06:20:36.634-05:00Ha! I remember some years ago taking a couple of s...Ha! I remember some years ago taking a couple of slightly different online alignment quizes and having them both come up "chaotic neutral." I remember telling my girlfriend (also a sometime gamer) at the time that "seems like you can only get Chaotic Neutral," to which she quiped: "Maybe <i>you</i> can only get Chaotic Neutral."Treyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04647628467658839351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1389986049507804094.post-48719255168065933402013-04-13T11:36:25.304-05:002013-04-13T11:36:25.304-05:00...and I think the reason I would use five-sided a......and I think the reason I would use five-sided alignment if I used it at all would be because the AD&D system is just a little too granular to hold everything in the mind at once. Institutionalizing what would otherwise be weird limit cases as a third-order system (DDG-style "lawful neutral (good)" or JG-style "CGA") takes us even farther away.<br /><br />Five Armies make for a dynamic enough battlefield.bombasticushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09570356997079883076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1389986049507804094.post-84592255206707395912013-04-13T09:45:54.726-05:002013-04-13T09:45:54.726-05:00This is great. I never grasped that it was also a ...This is great. I never grasped that it was also a map of what would become the Prime Material and that you could actually ethically *move off* and into metaphysical territories beyond the "saint / godling / demon / devil" signposts. And the notion that polytheism is inherently chaotic answers a lot of questions about implicit Christianity in the oldest clerics.<br /><br />Scottsz did a lot of work a few years back on the granolization of the druids and what they were really doing in Hommlet. Elemental "evil." Tagging this here in case he wants to incorporate this take on law/chaos into his thinking.bombasticushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09570356997079883076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1389986049507804094.post-15646483791827353122013-04-13T07:59:18.779-05:002013-04-13T07:59:18.779-05:00I still have the chart I graphed my players on in ...I still have the chart I graphed my players on in the early-80's... The 9 point system makes more sense than the 5 because if you slide from along either axis, you don't suddenly jump from one extreme to the other...<br /><br />That being said, I didn't use alignment at all for PCs in my 2e campaign world, and now that I'm running OD&D, I'm using the 3 point.<br />Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10231423670489116607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1389986049507804094.post-2530913082422157562013-04-12T23:26:19.057-05:002013-04-12T23:26:19.057-05:00Yes, my point in that discussion was that the 5-po...Yes, my point in that discussion was that the 5-point alignment is well integrated throughout the text (with a few exceptions), and it's impossible to tell who actually did this work: Holmes at the request of Gygax, or someone at TSR post-Holmes. Zenopus Archiveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14069501995927451558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1389986049507804094.post-71311800578458578472013-04-12T20:55:22.442-05:002013-04-12T20:55:22.442-05:00I still am partial to the 28 Sep 2010 chart/ expla...I still am partial to the 28 Sep 2010 chart/ explanation provided by Roger the GS at <br />Roles, Rules and RollsClovis Cithoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18208194219083373456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1389986049507804094.post-30741381676186075932013-04-12T18:53:49.396-05:002013-04-12T18:53:49.396-05:00It seems really close (if a bit neutered) to the f...It seems really close (if a bit neutered) to the five-point, single- spectrum alignment of Warhammer FRP 1 edChris Kutalikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01414743509426875792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1389986049507804094.post-23581142777694696622013-04-12T18:05:54.864-05:002013-04-12T18:05:54.864-05:00the short, cut-down-in-the glory-of-its-prime hist...<i>the short, cut-down-in-the glory-of-its-prime history of this alignment scheme</i><br /><br />D&D 4E actually uses the 5-fold alignment scheme too, sort of.<br /><br /><a href="https://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ex/20080602a" rel="nofollow">https://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ex/20080602a</a>Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1389986049507804094.post-46807134609638843852013-04-12T18:05:37.643-05:002013-04-12T18:05:37.643-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1389986049507804094.post-89573905150555025192013-04-12T16:20:23.811-05:002013-04-12T16:20:23.811-05:00Interesting. So Holmes may have put it in himself ...Interesting. So Holmes may have put it in himself even though he said he had preferred the old scheme (and didn't understand CG)? I can buy that if he was trying to make it fit with the post-Greyhawk supplement OD&D. Chris Kutalikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01414743509426875792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1389986049507804094.post-49277096584493278812013-04-12T16:10:22.143-05:002013-04-12T16:10:22.143-05:00Oh I can totally dig that approach--pushing it all...Oh I can totally dig that approach--pushing it all the way to its absurd conclusion. Kind of like how in Huge Ruined Scott's PbP campaign alignment languages are something you learn as a rite of passage into adulthood. <br /><br />My problem with the expansion is that I have always disliked all of them but Chaotic Neutral, which likely reveals something about my personality. Chris Kutalikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01414743509426875792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1389986049507804094.post-68207208201495508372013-04-12T16:07:53.263-05:002013-04-12T16:07:53.263-05:00How utterly strange. I would say you are probably ...How utterly strange. I would say you are probably on thin ice when you stretch back to AD&D alignment for a theoretical framework. Chris Kutalikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01414743509426875792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1389986049507804094.post-4618265525612818342013-04-12T15:42:29.953-05:002013-04-12T15:42:29.953-05:00Oh yeah, alignment languages are irritating too.Oh yeah, alignment languages are irritating too.Alex J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00147269991231314528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1389986049507804094.post-47208949701104620872013-04-12T15:39:40.063-05:002013-04-12T15:39:40.063-05:00The True Neutral as Cosmic Balance thing is the on...The True Neutral as Cosmic Balance thing is the only part of any of the alignment systems that really irritates me.<br /><br />I just read this, where some dude uses D&D alignment to explicate his theories of business organization:<br /><br />http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/03/12/gervais-macleod-8-human-nature-theories-x-y-z-and-a/<br /><br />Highlight (for me anyway): "A team of 10 might be 2-2.5 times as productive as a single engineer. This leads us, as technologists, toward the (chaotic, possibly faulty) assumption that organizations are inherently less than the sum of their parts, because that is clearly true of software engineering teams."<br />Alex J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00147269991231314528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1389986049507804094.post-38434859257823032672013-04-12T15:13:39.734-05:002013-04-12T15:13:39.734-05:00Interesting. I actually do like Ninefold Alignment...Interesting. I actually do like Ninefold Alignment (in it's place). It has an the baroqueness of real world occult systems. I could easily see it having some Vancian humor to it too, though admittedly I've never seen it played that way.Treyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04647628467658839351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1389986049507804094.post-61364798555096131622013-04-12T15:03:34.133-05:002013-04-12T15:03:34.133-05:00Interesting post. Just last month we had a discuss...Interesting post. Just last month we had a <a href="http://odd74.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=holmes&action=display&thread=8543" rel="nofollow">discussion</a> over on the ODD74 forum about whether Holmes or TSR was responsible for putting the 5-prong alignment in the Basic rulebook. Zenopus Archiveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14069501995927451558noreply@blogger.com