In the first brilliantly-written
editions of SB, all magic is "indirect". The sorcerer only
draws power by summoning and binding elementals, demons, and higher
powers that in turn conduct spell-like effects and “enchant items”
by binding beings into them. The desired effect depends on the
exact nature of the summoned creature and how you employ it. To fly
one summons an air elemental, to create “magic armor” one binds a
certain type of aggressive demon.
It's not a certain or safe process,
naturally those beings can and will resist being pressed into service
and will visit harm on the summoner if given a chance. In the foreward of Rhialto, Vance talks about spells being "codes...inserted [by the mage] into the sensorium of an entity which is able and not unwilling to alter the environment in accordance with the message conveyed by the spell...The most pliant and cooperative of these range from the lowly and frail elementals through the sandestins. More fractious entities are known by the Temuchin as 'daihak', which include 'demons' and 'gods'. A magician's power derives from the abilities of the entities he is able to control.”
Quite similar, no? (There is a double
irony here in there are any number of examples of direct,
non-summoning-based magic scattered throughout Moorcock's stories to
not fit entirely with the rpg version.)
Curiously this “late Vancian magic”
(the fire-and-forget, more direct-seeming magic of the older versions
of Dying Earth and the Cugel stories seem to play truer
to D&D) is also featured in a very consistent form in the
Lyonesse trilogy which came out around the same time in the mid-80s.
Sandestins and demons again make appearances often expressing a
crankiness and malice against their summoners.
Now contrast this to D&D where the
source of magic is vague and more concerned on the effect until AD&D.
The PHB explicitly rules out arcane magic as coming from
“supernatural beings” and the DMG goes much further in explaining
that spells are tapping into the energies of the Negative and
Positive planes.
I'm far to bought in and lazy to ditch
classic D&D magic altogether, but it does raise all kinds of
interesting opportunities for some variants to supplement it. Perhaps
a variant class, a summoner or sorcerer, that relies purely on this
kind of “indirect magic”? Or a limited sub-range of ritual-like
spells that are more powerful than the normal range of spells, but
rely on navigating the dangers (and potentially amusing roleplaying
opportunities of exchanges) between caster and persnickety
extra-dimensional being?
Something to think about this Friday.
I like to think of magic users, who use pre-scripted spells, and sorcerers, who summon extra-planar entities as separate branches
ReplyDeleteI like that idea far better than the split between mages who use Vancian magic and sorcerers who have some innate sorcerous ability of later D&D.
DeleteIf you imagine lesser and greater sandistins as limited wish and wish spells (note the verbiage that such spells can be twisted against the casters desire, just like the mischievious sandistines). Then 1st-6th level spells are vancian, and 7+ are slots filled with wishes, with each slot representing an indenture point against a lesser or greater sandistine.
ReplyDeleteHere's an interesting quote from Madouc (last of the Lyonesse books) about differing magic systems:
ReplyDeleteShimrod gave his head a smiling shake. "We use different magics. When first I wandered the world, such creatures were new to me. I enjoyed their frolics and pretty fancies. Now I am more settled, and I no longer try to fathom fairy logic. Someday, if you like, I will explain the difference between fairy magic and sandestin magic, which is used by most magicians."
Ah, Lyonesse!
DeleteMy nearly-four-year-old twin daughters are really digging The Last Unicorn in graphic novel. One of them is taking forays into the Shire and Mirkwood via The Hobbit novel. If we can get through The Hobbit I'll next go to Suldrun's Garden, which I think they'll enjoy more than Lord of the Rings.
I will be interested to see how they fare with that, there certainly are some dark parts of all three books. (Ah something to look forward to in fatherhood.)
DeleteI'm surprised at how they respond to more adult parts of books. There's clearly an innocence in them that an adult cannot share, a lack of understanding of true malice (note: not a lack of true malice!) It makes explaining the story much more difficult, actually. Nevertheless, the sense of awe and inability to distinguish fact from fiction makes for wonderful expressions as I read them these stories.
DeleteSadly, I cannot personally manipulate them for their young credulity. They've figured me out enough to know when I'm trying to pull one over on them. :^)
I'm working on a fantasy heartbreaker / retro-clone at the moment where magic is entirely a function of spirits: elementals, nature spirits, souls of the dead, gods and their messengers, demons, etc. Accordingly, the default magic-using class is the Cleric (aka Mystic, Necromancer, Shaman, Druid): someone whose "spells" are in fact invocations of the spirits or gods, and whose powers are dependent on supplicating those entities.
ReplyDeleteI find that this approach fits well with pulp S&S tropes, and it also fits coherently into the Cleric's other powers, e.g. turning undead. Thus, what separates the Mystic from other men is his ability to command spirits, and this can either take the form of "spells" (i.e. commanding unseen spirits to carry out tasks) or banishing and commanding the spirits of the dead (or other hostile spirits). Thus, the class can pretty much be played mechanically as written in D&D, with perhaps some changes to how and when spells are recovered (i.e. when the spirit executing that spell is propitiated in accordance with its needs). It also brings the anti-Cleric into his own as a straight-up Necromancer / Diabolist class.
I've also written up an Alchemist NPC class who's a sort of a pulp version of the Magic User: the class has access to MU spells, but they're all powered by powders, potions, and other "scientific" apparatus. Thus, all his spells require expensive and fiddly material components. At root, of course, these powers are tapping into the same spiritual power as the Mystic, but the spirits are being manipulated through their material correspondences (and may take issue with the alchemist accordingly, especially at high power levels). This character type also has precedent in the pulps (e.g. all those Conan villains with their sleep-inducing lotus powders and exploding firebombs).
Picador, your alchemist is the Magic User of Blackmoor. Have a look at First Fantasy Campaign (or Dragons at Dawn)
DeleteIIRC the distinction between a petty wizard and an archwizard in the Dying Earth novels was whether said arcanist had managed to bind a Sandestin to servitude.
ReplyDeleteBind Sandestin: enter post-scarcity economy. No further need to imperil one's precious brain by trying to force Vancian castings into it; just tell your tame djinn to make it so.
This makes Rhialto the Magnificent arguably a literary pre-incarnation of what 3E fandom referred to as 'the wish economy':
1) bind Efreet,
2) command it to expend wishes on pain of "I'm a wizard, I've entire grimoires of spells that can make your existence horrendous."
3) profit
Although the name is a 3E artifact, the possibilities of wish economy/post-scarcity (Rhialtan?) magic were already there in AD&D. Summoning and binding otherworldly beings to service: all there in the spell lists of the PHB (expanded upon substantially in Unearthed Arcana, which you may or may not consider admissible).
Once again, Uncle Gary is already sitting there, smiling benignly and wondering what kept us.
That certainly gives new insight into why wizards try so hard to get spells like spiritwrack, cacodaemon, gate, true name, etc"
DeleteI've actually been experimenting with adding in alternate magic forms to my own setting, particularly the magic of the "alienist" as presented in PO: Spells and Magic, which (while not precisely like the bindings of Vance) does draw upon outside entities for some level of its power.
ReplyDeleteIt's been difficult stripping out the whole spell point system from S&M, which does not necessarily make sense with Fire & Forget magic.
Suffice to say, the way I've adapted the alienist relies on summoning and binding tutelary demons in order to learn but not necessarily cast spells.
We're struggling through a homebrew variant of Stormbringer 1e right now -marrying Pendragon's passions, combat and skill ideas with Stormbringer's character generation and magic ideas. Its turning out a very different game than D&D precisely because of the indirect nature of the magic; but, the wedding of rules seems to be working out quite nicely.
ReplyDeleteThe best part of having a character class or magic system based on indirect magic is the personality of the spirits, elementals, demons, what-have-you. Its through this medium that our campaign has become truly gonzo! My favorite is Natalie, the bound air elemental that looks amazingly like a blow-up doll, who will take you floating through the air if you dance with her.
Stormdragon?
DeleteI like the idea of indirect magic for that alone. In Rhialto (and even more so in Lyonesse) there are these classic Vance exchanges between the wizard and their sandestins who bicker, bend orders, and work-to-rule in order to get away with the minimum amount of service.
Yeah, Stormdragon.
DeleteThe party's primary bound demon is a demon of knowledge, Kato. He's this crazy mask who knows all the gossip of any place in all the planes of existence, so long as someone with a trace of royal blood is present. Its fun to interpret the bound demon's personality with the roll to see if this demon knows the answer to any player question. Its sent us off into wild goose chases many times.
I've had similar thoughts about conjurers/summoners and sandestins.
ReplyDeleteAt a minicon a friend and I ran last year I ran a B/X scenario around the following premise:
1. Marx's "Capital" somehow winds up in a D&D campaign world.
2. M-U decodes it, realises that the key to world domination is a productive and efficient labour force.
3. Proceeds to develop a school of magic centered around conjuring.
4. Conjurers are an industrial force. Their magic operates through sandestin intermediaries and their labour force is summoned and bound in a similar manner. Elementals drive turbines. Other agents manipulate looms, forges and assembly lines.
All I can think of are those diagrams of Marx's that show the circuits of capitalist production/reproduction. It certainly would bring the idea of commodity fetishism to a whole other level.
ReplyDeleteNow I must ask, wher in the Elric saga are those episodes when magic is done without summoning some kind of creature? I remember reading in the game Elric! that they had decided to make a magic system truer to the books, by including something more than summoning. Frankly, I never liked those rules and because of that I'd love find those parts in the books. I re-read them, and only found summoning magics!
ReplyDeleteThough I lack the wherewithal to dig too deeply into the mechanics of magic in my campaign, I have been messing around with the transition to a production/industrial economy and how it's influencing the use of magic. The Wizards' Guilds are sharp enough to see the rise of technology as a serious threat, and perceptive enough to see their roles changing into the creators and sustainers of a magic-based industrial model in which they supply all the power, but they're running into the typical 'elite' problem of being reduced to a workforce and are becoming quite cutthroat in their attempts to maintain themselves, instead, as the controllers of an extremely valuable commodity.
ReplyDeleteWe'll see how it plays out, but I can see them trying to wipe out sorcerers (and diminish the influence of divine magic), as well as heading into conflict with the technologically adept gnomes and pulling some power plays with the handful of human kingdoms on the verge of a production economy. (I'm already running scenarios that follow the growth of monotheism and the rise of authoritarian socialism & planned economy in a still-agrarian society, because I am ludicrously keen on these sorts of political-economy scenarios in RPGs.)
I've been mulling this post over since I first read it. One thing that struck me as interesting/ironic is that the magic systems in Dave Arneson and Richard Snider's Adventures in Fantasy from 1978, sounds a lot more Vancian than that of D&D. As it happens, it's not well explained in one spot, so I cobbled together this:
ReplyDelete“Human Sorcerers... achieve their magical effects through a system of pacts with the forces of nature… These forces then wield the magic as the (spell caster) commands; without these forces human magic is impossible. A Sorcerer is but an instrument of a greater force. “(AiF,BoCaT:5)
“ (Creatures of song and rune magic – such as elves, dwarves and dragons), never make pacts with any (magical) force” (AIF,BoFaM,30) “(They have) innate supernatural powers (being) a force in (thier) alignment (themselves) and capable of drawing directly from the alignment's source.” (AiF,BoCaT:5)
Mechanicaly, song, rune, and human "pact" magic is handled by the same system of spell points.
Twelve years late to the discussion, but still worth mentioning that one of the few things I liked about the Al Qadim setting was its take on the magic-user class, which relied entirely on what amounted to a minor genie familiar to go out into a magical otherworld to locate and bring back spells for them to use. Think "more cooperative but much weaker and more limited sandestin" and you have the gist of it.
ReplyDeleteThe mechanics were made more interesting thanks to a chance that your genie wouldn't be able to find the desired spell at all, and might come back empty handed or with the wrong spell altogether. The process also took some time, and the more potent a spell it was sent after the longer and less reliable the whole process became.
Closest I've even seen D&D get to actual "top tier" Vancian magic use, since folks capable of binding sandestins are seen as having hit the peak of the art - at least by bumbling dabblers like Cugel or competent but mid-tier professionals like Mazirian. Given the actual stories about Rhialto and company, I suspect there's some "grass is greener" jealousy going on there. Yes, sandestin can effectively grant wishes, but the hassle of getting any really major effects out of them results in archmages relying a lot on their collection of artifacts (accumulated by hook or crook over a long career, and only rarely self-made) rather then arguing over indenture points. :)